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Anonymous asked:

I looked around your blog and noticed there's a dearth of female characters. It's indicative of the fact you've grown up in a media culture that primarily presents female characters as a means to motivate male sexual appeal, not as interesting, well-developed characters unto themselves. Non-sexualized female characters are an exception to the rule. Citing a few exceptions doesn't disprove that there is a huge problem here, to the point where women have trouble finding value in female characters.

I never said there wasn’t a huge problem or argued that there wasn’t. xD But it is not the fault of the artists or character design as whole, is what I have said multiple times now.

And my blog, which hasn’t been used in almost a year now, if not a year has nothing to do with my argument, and don’t assume anything about me or my life. It is none of your buisness and the argument has nothing to do with any personal endeavors so sit the fuck back down.

Mukuo's Sketchblog: shoomlah: mukuo: characterdesign101: welcome to character design 101,...

shoomlah:

shoomlah:

mukuo:

characterdesign101:

welcome to character design 101, where six instances where it hasn’t happened don’t change the fact that disparate stylization does happen and it doesn’t matter because here we (in spite of the rather broad url) largely talk about video…

Character designers are culpable.

To act as if character designers and concept artists are all innocent bystanders is extremely naive- that’s where your argument falls apart.

I know hundreds of character designers out there who’re considered the cream of the crop in both the industry and the community as a whole, but they’re shit at designing women.  That means they’re shit at designing roughly 50% of characters.  Inexcusable, but they get a free pass, and so the cycle is perpetuated at every stage in the pipeline- concept artists, modelers, ADs, producers and execs should all be held accountable for contributing to the problem.

Not every designer is out there fighting against rampant sexism and racism in game design.  Granted, some of us pick our battles so we can like to fight another day, but a lot of designers out there either 1) do not care, or 2) are completely unaware of the problems they’re further prolifierating.

Nitpicking women vs. nitpicking men

And again, you completely missing what I’m saying- I don’t get my male characters picked apart.  They’re tweaked, sure, but they’re passed up the chain without nary a word, especially in regards to their sex appeal and fat distribution.  Female characters, on the other hand, experience far more deliberation.  I am talking months of e-mails sent back and forth, after an equivalent male character was designed in a matter of weeks- even when these characters are based on real people, real human beings who exist and have been 3D scanned, they still end up molding the woman towards some perfect, unattainable ideal.

Sexism isn’t just perpetuated by rapists, racism isn’t just perpetuated by the KKK, and homophobia isn’t just perpetuated by the Westboro baptist church.  This shit runs deep, and saying “it’s out of our hands, it’s just marketing so it isn’t a problem we need to address” is a damaging oversimplification.

Hahaha. xD This is funny, who ever said anyone in all this was innocent? Only you. You keep imagining - or worse yet,- assuming whole big portions of things I haven’t said. xD

The designer isn’t held accountable for the designs he makes on a job, he’s been hired to do this job, or works for a company that has rounded on the basis of an idea. This idea is chopped, cropped and cut, to where its often barely a semblance of what it had been in the beginning. Its not a lack of integrity, or creativity that makes it come out with the aforementioned ‘formula’ for safe characters the majority of the time - its the need to sell. If you don’t sell it, no one gets paid for their work, all that integrity doesn’t count for much if you can’t support yourself in the end. I don’t believe you can blame the designers in any stage of game development ( And certainly not character design as a whole.) for conceding to their employers wishes and doing what they’re being paid to do - which may be far less than they are capable of.

Fair enough if some people don’t care, but that doesn’t mean the blame for this should fall on them, they didn’t create the problem, conceding to it is just realistic considering the competitive nature of game design and concept art.

As for your issue with them nitpicking the female form, I’m not surprised in the least! Of course they have to be careful, of course they pick at it precariously - look how you people reacted to this little thing! You can’t throw a stone with a naturally proportioned woman on it without hearing the shrill squawks of a few hundred million dramatists. Shouldn’t you be happy that some care is taken with the female characters, all that deliberation is careful, you may not come out of it with the result you wanted, but some thought went into your ideal, or unideal design. They didn’t just pop out the most offensive thing they could just to spite you personally - which is how you’re all taking it.

And as for the lack of nitpicking on men, you’re still made to do tweaks, so it doesn’t make their case any less valid, and you don’t think the males are built to perfection as much as the women? Just because deciding on a final female design takes longer and is evidently more dangerous doesn’t lessen the fact that it happens to the male’s too. In fact, isn’t it more of an insult to men that they just model on a couple of washboard abs without thinking about it? A square jaw and roguish hair, rather than deliberating for months on as delicate a detail as the appropriate hip size or the wonders of a push up bra? or no bra at all come to think of it… xD

Does no one else find this funny? xD

Anyway, I take no sides really. I’m not arguing FOR the marketing, as lot of people jumped to the conclusion of SOMEHOW and I’m not incredibly against it either (If it works it works, live and let live.) but I do believe that attacks toward the artists is wrong and that the specification that its a primarily female problem is also wrong. xD

I never said it wasn’t a problem we don’t need to address, even though I’m not fussed either way, but go ahead, change the world - what’re you arguing with me for if you can just go out there and do it? xD Its not a damaging over simplification either, the fault does lie with marketing and by extension consumers; if you stop buying it, by god they’ll stop making it. xD. Its a product, large teams people make it. As with any other product, not everyone on that team will like, or enjoy or agree with what the product is intended for, but its naive to think that makes all of those people bad and wrong for being hired to create the product and its even more naive to think that they should stand up and not work on it, due to a personal disagreement.

(Source: costumecommunityservice)

shoomlah:

mukuo:

characterdesign101:

 

welcome to character design 101, where six instances where it hasn’t happened don’t change the fact that disparate stylization does happen and it doesn’t matter because here we (in spite of the rather broad url) largely talk about video games

There’s far more than six, darling. If you largely talk about video games then why was the character design from the comic book artist anymore valid? I like how you realised you were wrong, and ran back to cut the vastness of your initial complaint. xD

Besides, the orcs and trolls, in WoW are broadly built powerful humanoid females, the dwarf females in Dragon Age: Origins are portly and short. All the females in psychonauts were warped and vastly changed, and all the girls who weren’t princess zelda - the love interest - in all of the Zelda games were these weird vastly different women.










; like I said previously, its not the fault of character design, its simple marketing. Females in games are predominantly the love interests of the male character(s) and are supposed to be attractive to their audience, which is predominantly male.

The male figure isn’t changed much either, honestly. For every fat guy sidekick in the world there’s a fat woman sidekick or some other bodily variant for characterization. The majority of male designs are large shouldered buff guys or small shouldered buff guys, this disparate stylization is definitely something you’re imagining. Males get vastly larger shoulders as much as a female character might get vastly bigger breasts and/or hips which, even if you don’t like it, is stylization.

Both genders are equally kept at safe proportionate formula for marketing purposes, like I said before.

My problem with what you’re saying is that its a specific attack on women. Which it is not, nor is it a problem with character design as a whole.

As someone who works in the industry, your take on this problem is complete bullshit.  Also, don’t immediately dismiss discussions of sexual dimorphism in WoW that have been discussed regularly for the past eight years.

So, the games industry examples you cite are (not counting the broken links):

  1. Ellie from Borderlands - created specifically to combat the issue at hand, and a character design already addressed and lauded by the blog you’re arguing with
  2. Shiek, who is very much the exception to the rule as a character couched in androgyny and cross-dressing
  3. Dragon Age: Origins character creation, and modded character creation at that

Look, I have to deal with this nonsense every day.  I have to deal with producers and art directors nitpicking a female character’s body to the point of optimum sex appeal.  [INSERT FEMALE CHARACTER HERE] is too hippy, her features are too broad, can we make her skin lighter, why isn’t she more feminine, but she should have heels, etc, etc.  And I work at a company that is generally pretty good about this sort of stuff!  The fact that I still see it, the fact that I go home from work with migraines trying to argue with these people, shows that there’s a significant problem in the industry.

Also, stop parroting OH THE AUDIENCE IS PREDOMINANTLY MALE diatribe.  Not.  Goddamn.  True.  Even if that was the case, the idea that everything in the media needs to appeal to a particular group’s personal sexual preferences is just boring, lazy, and irresponsible.  I consume a ton of media that doesn’t turn me on, and yet I live to fight another day.  Lord knows how I do it.

 

 -Claire, who works at Microsoft for god’s sake.  We know the power of good marketing.

So… you agree with me then? That its not the fault of the designers its the fault of the media formula. xD You even agreed with what I said on various points. You’re dealing with it everyday, you’re told to make someone more feminine and are nitpicking their body to the point of optimum sex appeal.

Which is not the fault of your - the designers input, yes? and is in fact the fault of the formulas that sell.

It may suck and you may not like it but its just how shit is done.

And it is the same for male characters, a producer might tell their designer to make a small male more bulky and ‘masculine’ which would be the same as nitpicking on a female character and telling them to change a more boyish looking female into a curvacious one. There’s an equal amount of abuse on both parties.

I don’t see why the majority of you are so adverse to a male character being subjugated in their design. You don’t think that’s warped at all? That everything people don’t cater to to make every female character ‘special’ gets you riled and then someone suggests that they do the same to male characters and you get even more fired up because women aren’t the focus of attention anymore? xD I’m female and I can see it.

and males being the predominant market for games is true, and /you’re/ the only one who said /everything/ has to appeal sexually. Something having an aesthetically pleasing quality doesn’t have to be sexual.

Adding to that, games that cater to niches often fail, like Psychonauts, great game, everyone who played it liked it, but it didn’t get to come back for a second because it didn’t sell. Because it didn’t follow the formula for something that appeals to the majority of people.

I’m not saying this way of thinking is okay, as I have to repeat for the third time; Its /not/ the fault of the /character design/, its not a flaw of creativity, or anything within their power. They have to cater to their producer and whole team of other people who are interested in nothing but a sellable game.

Seriously you guys, simmer down.

(Source: costumecommunityservice)

characterdesign101:

mukuo:

thewonderfullurkerofoz:

psdo:

jingles-pigtails:

coelasquid:

characterdesign101:

Principles of Problematic Character Design, the First

Disparate Stylization

The tendency of artists to keep female characters close to idealized human proportions, even when male characters’ proportions are dramatically stylized.

I remember talking to a guy in school who claimed that it was impossible to make goofy looking female characters and it was like dude, just because you don’t doesn’t mean no one can.

A good example of this is seen in Christopher Hart’s books.
Here is his page on male body types:


Here are his female body types:

WOW.

sit down, c-hart

I would like to see more comic relief female characters tho~ I can only think of a small few and they;re mostly old school villains or secretly male.


Oop! Wrong again feminist!Tumblr. ( I know you always have /some/ sort of complaint, but still.) All these different characters represent a variant body type for women and I even didn’t delve into the villain section. A lot of these girls are comic relief too to boot.

Its not a deficiency in /character design/. Its just safe marketing. The less the female body type is warped the safer it is to put on TV. You won’t get any complaints from women about an insult to the female body and you won’t have a high percentage of males getting bored because of a lack of aesthetic appeal.

I find it funny though, that these girls didn’t even occur to anyone, /because/ they’re out of proportion in places. So, you see my point.

welcome to character design 101, where six instances where it hasn’t happened don’t change the fact that disparate stylization does happen and it doesn’t matter because here we (in spite of the rather broad url) largely talk about video games

There’s far more than six, darling. If you largely talk about video games then why was the character design from the comic book artist anymore valid? I like how you realised you were wrong, and ran back to cut the vastness of your initial complaint. xD

Besides, the orcs and trolls, in WoW are broadly built powerful humanoid females, the dwarf females in Dragon Age: Origins are portly and short. All the females in psychonauts were warped and vastly changed, and all the girls who weren’t princess zelda - the love interest - in all of the Zelda games were these weird vastly different women.










; like I said previously, its not the fault of character design, its simple marketing. Females in games are predominantly the love interests of the male character(s) and are supposed to be attractive to their audience, which is predominantly male.

The male figure isn’t changed much either, honestly. For every fat guy sidekick in the world there’s a fat woman sidekick or some other bodily variant for characterization. The majority of male designs are large shouldered buff guys or small shouldered buff guys, this disparate stylization is definitely something you’re imagining. Males get vastly larger shoulders as much as a female character might get vastly bigger breasts and/or hips which, even if you don’t like it, is stylization.

Both genders are equally kept at safe proportionate formula for marketing purposes, like I said before.

My problem with what you’re saying is that its a specific attack on women. Which it is not, nor is it a problem with character design as a whole.

thewonderfullurkerofoz:

psdo:

jingles-pigtails:

coelasquid:

characterdesign101:

Principles of Problematic Character Design, the First

Disparate Stylization

The tendency of artists to keep female characters close to idealized human proportions, even when male characters’ proportions are dramatically stylized.

I remember talking to a guy in school who claimed that it was impossible to make goofy looking female characters and it was like dude, just because you don’t doesn’t mean no one can.

A good example of this is seen in Christopher Hart’s books.
Here is his page on male body types:


Here are his female body types:

WOW.

sit down, c-hart

I would like to see more comic relief female characters tho~ I can only think of a small few and they;re mostly old school villains or secretly male.


Oop! Wrong again feminist!Tumblr. ( I know you always have /some/ sort of complaint, but still.) All these different characters represent a variant body type for women and I even didn’t delve into the villain section. A lot of these girls are comic relief too to boot.

Its not a deficiency in /character design/. Its just safe marketing. The less the female body type is warped the safer it is to put on TV. You won’t get any complaints from women about an insult to the female body and you won’t have a high percentage of males getting bored because of a lack of aesthetic appeal.

I find it funny though, that these girls didn’t even occur to anyone, /because/ they’re out of proportion in places. So, you see my point.

(Source: costumecommunityservice)

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